Read the opposing arguments from Sports Geek and Loyal Homer about whether or not Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is a hall of famer.
Every professional sport has a number of great players who, in spite of their accolades, never receive an invitation to the sport’s hall of fame. Baseball, for example, is full of them. Some players are seemingly disqualified from serious contention because of their connection to allegations of cheating (Mark McGwire). Others players may have infamous incidents that overshadow their career accomplishments (Roberto Alomar and the loogie heard ‘round the world). Others are ignored because they failed to reach certain benchmark achievements, like hitting 500 homeruns (Fred McGriff). Whatever their reason for exclusion, a number of great players who fail to make it into the hall of fame spawn debates about their worthiness, and football has more than its fair share of such debates. This debate examines NFL quarterback Kurt Warner’s qualifications for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Sports Geek lived up to his reputation as more than just a scholar with a mind for statistics but as a knowledgeable sports intellectual, who provides unique fact-based insight. Sports Geek’s argument began by highlighting Kurt Warner’s pedigree as one of the most prolific passers of his day, citing his huge success in St. Louis from 1999-2001, a 9-3 career playoff record, and his Super Bowl MVP. Perhaps the Sports Geek’s most compelling argument was his comparison to other quarterbacks with similar histories, quarterbacks who are actually inducted into the Pro Hall of Fame.
Loyal Homer fired back with an equally stirring argument that pointed to the monumental collapse of Warner’s career during his post-Greatest-Show-On-Turf days. Loyal Homer reminded Warner supporters that the embattled quarterback was unseated twice in as many years because of his failures to control the ball. Loyal Homer made significant advances for the argument by pointing out that in 2005 Warner was brought to Arizona where he promptly split time with the likes of Josh McCown.
Both Sports Geek and Loyal Homer brought up the fact that most of Kurt Warner’s successes were accomplished during a relatively short career in a short burst of greatness offset by periods of struggles and ineffectiveness. Whether the short timeframe of Warner’s success should be viewed as a positive or negative is truly a matter of personal opinion.
For me, the arguments boiled down to one central question: Is the debate whether Kurt Warner will be inducted into the Hall of Fame or whether Kurt Warner should be inducted into the hall of fame? Sports Geek makes it abundantly clear that Warner boasts career numbers that probably will send him to Canton… eventually. But Loyal Homer convinced me that Warner should not be remembered among the greats of the game. Therefore I am awarding the victory to Loyal Homer.
When I think of the greatest names in professional football history names like Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and Peyton Manning come to mind. Kurt Warner will be remembered as a very good quarterback, but I agree with Loyal Homer that the NFL should not dilute the memory and legacy of those who are truly the best by allowing anything less to enter enshrinement in the living memory of the sport, which is the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Read the opposing arguments from Sports Geek and Loyal Homer about whether or not Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is a hall of famer.
The past decade fans have been privy to one of the greatest generations of football players in history. The NFL is currently littered with living legends. Gridiron goliaths, like Peyton Manning and Brett Favre stand head and shoulders above the competition and will no doubt go down in professional football history as some of the greatest players to ever take the field. In this era of elite play, there are great players who will ultimately not make the cut as one of the greats in history. This is great news for fans, and more importantly to the TSD crew, because it allows us to argue about the place in history of our favorite players. One player that elicits such controversy, is a star in the twilight of his career – Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner.
Kurt Warner’s career is best summed up in the immortal words of Charles Dickens: “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.”
The current Arizona Cardinals quarterback has built an up-and-down career marked by periods of incredible success and phases of mediocrity and epic failures. With a resume that includes two league MVPs, multiple Super Bowl appearances, and a Super Bowl MVP it is easy to establish that Warner is a talented quarterback. But his physical frailty and failures between the 2002-2004 seasons call his hall of fame qualifications into doubt.
Is Kurt Warner a hall of fame quarterback?
Sports Geek is sure to construct a cerebral argument, supported by empirical evidence, stating that Kurt Warner is a deserving candidate for enshrinement in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And we can count on Loyal Homer to issue a passionate rebuttal, explaining the reasons why Kurt Warner should have no place among the greatest players of all time.
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Whose intellectual offense will prevail? Should Kurt start packing his bags for Canton, Ohio, or will he have to buy a ticket if he wants to get into the Hall of Fame?
Read the debate intro and the opposing argument from Loyal Homer that Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is not a hall of famer.
These are the types of questions that The Sports Debates was launched to answer. These questions, folks, are also the most compelling to Sports Geeks like me.
It is a simple question – is Kurt Warner a hall of fame caliber quarterback? Such a simple question deserves a simple answer. It would be great to give one, too.
Instead, a simple examination of his statistics, followed by a comparison to current pro football hall of fame quarterbacks, proves without a doubt that Kurt Warner, even if he does decide to retire this season as the still young(ish) age of 38, deserves to be recognized as a hall of famer.
Kurt Warner in just 125 career starts – thanks to injuries – has compiled one of the best careers for any quarterback of all time. From 1999-2001 Kurt Warner strung together one of the greatest runs by any measure. In 1999 (when Warner completed one of the greatest seasons for pro quarterback ever) he threw a whopping 41 touchdowns against just 13 interceptions and led the NFC with a completion percentage of over 65 percent. In 2000 he managed to improve his completion percentage to 67.7 percent and lead the NFC in seven notable statistical categories, despite starting just 11 games. In 2001 he led his team with an amazing season-long performance where he completed nearly 69 percent of his passes, threw for nearly 5,000 yards, and averaged 301.9 yards passing per game. Perhaps Warner benefited from the offensive scheme the Rams employed, but he is also responsible for making it work like no other quarterback could.
The biggest threshold Warner has to pass for many was the ability to perform outside of the late 1990s St. Louis Rams’ offenses. Sure, Kurt Warner was great during the Greatest Show On Turf days. But, how good of a quarterback was Warner after St. Louis? No worries – he was great. After a couple of injury-riddled seasons he posted nearly 3,500 yards and 27 touchdowns in 2007, then followed that up with 4,583 yards passing and 30 touchdowns along with a Super Bowl appearance (and a brutal loss that could have been a great win if not for some bad defense down the stretch). This season Warner led the team to another season of double-digit wins and tossed over 3,700 yards with 26 touchdowns. Warner’s skills are not exactly in decline.
Warner also has a 9-3 career playoff record, a Super Bowl win and Super Bowl MVP trophy.
So, what is the threshold for the hall of fame? On the surface Warner seems worthy of consideration. I offer two quarterbacks that Kurt Warner compares to similarly to prove that he is worthy of being a hall of famer: Dan Fouts and Troy Aikman.
Dan Fouts, like Kurt Warner, threw for over 4,000 passing yards three times in his career. Unlike Warner, who spread his performances out throughout his career, Fouts reached that magical season benchmark in three consecutive seasons. Dan Fouts was a very accurate passer, one of the reasons he reached the hall of fame. Kurt Warner’s completion percentage for a season only once dipped below 60 percent. Fouts failed to reach 60 percent 10 times. Fouts also finished his career just two games over .500 as a starter, with a career playoff record of 3-4. Warner is currently 13 games over .500.
Troy Aikman is another hall of fame quarterback that Kurt Warner already leads in many statistical categories. Obviously, Aikman’s playoff record is incomparable, finishing 11-4 with several rings. But, Aikman never threw 25 touchdown passes in a season, notching 23 in 1992 as a career high. Warner surpassed 25 TD passes on five separate occasions. The highest passing yards per game Aikman ever averaged is 229.5. Sure, Aikman was a great quarterback, but on a team with a great running back, too. The burden for Warner to carry the team’s offensive output and continue to perform at a high level separates him from other players he compares favorably to, like Troy Aikman.
If 2009 proves to be Warner’s last, he will have ended strongly, unlike the aforementioned hall of famers. Fouts ended his career with a five win season, just 2,517 passing yards and 10 touchdowns. Aikman ended with just four wins, fewer than 2,000 passing yards and seven touchdowns. Both Fouts and Aikman are deserving of hall of fame recognition. By the threshold their careers have established, so is Kurt Warner.
What, truly, is the knock against Kurt Warner’s hall of fame credentials? His stats are great. His performance on the biggest stage is great. He has a Super Bowl MVP. He is a great player, a great story, and one of the best of all time. The only true knock against Warner is that he has not played very long. He has only started 125 games. For Warner, however, his relatively short playing time turns out to be a positive when considering his hall of famer worthiness. The only factor that makes Kurt Warner’s accomplishments more noteworthy is the fact that he accomplished so much in such a relatively short span of time.
I could take up twenty-five pages of point by point comparison of Warner and other pro football hall of fame quarterbacks. I simply do not have to do that. Warner’s statistics, his consistency, and his dominance of the game during his prime are remarkable, and worthy of recognition of the highest honor as one of the best quarterbacks ever to play the game of football.
Read the arguments from Loyal Homer and Babe Ruthless about which NFL Wild Card game they believe is the best of this postseason.
It is rematch city this week for the NFL Wild Card weekend. In a bizarre twist of something that definitely is NOT luck, the NFL slate of playoff games features three rematches from week 17. With plenty of gamesmanship on display last weekend as teams did their level best to withhold game plans and star players, all the cards are on the table this weekend (get it… cards?). The best Wild Card game of this 2009 NFL postseason, therefore, is a rematch. Since Dallas and Philadelphia were actually playing hard (supposedly) last weekend, and the Bengals have played poorly down the stretch, the best game is the rematch between the Green Bay Packers and Arizona Cardinals in the desert.
Fresh off a lopsided Packers victory last weekend, where Arizona took the established step of benching important starters, the two teams meet again on the same field. Though the Packers handled the Cardinals reserves, and the Cardinals are scrambling to replace injured receiver Anquan Boldin in the lineup this week, do not dismiss these Cardinals.
It only SEEMS as though the Cardinals are easy to dismiss. Remember last season’s playoffs? The Cardinals were dismissed all the way to the Super Bowl, where the team barely lost thanks to last minute heroics from Pittsburgh. This Arizona team again seems underrated, and it is improved over last season’s team.
In 2008 the Cardinals were poor, at best, when it came to running the football. In fact, the Cardinals were dead last in the NFL in 2008 with a scant 73.6 yards per game earned on the ground. The team drafted Ohio State beast of a running back Chris Wells, and has now made dramatic improvements to the running game to balance out an already stellar passing game. The Cardinals certainly did not lead the NFL in rushing, but the team improved the yards per game by 20 yards – TWENTY YARDS. That is no small task, and the running attack will take pressure off of Kurt Warner AND help the team in goal line situations.
Since I mentioned Warner, it is only fair to fully outline why he is so vital to the team’s success. He throws for over 250 yards per game and has two 1,000 yard receivers. He has thrown for 100 touchdown passes with two different teams (Rams and Cardinals). He is a two time NFL MVP award winner, and has a Super Bowl MVP to his credit, too (he probably would have added a second if the Cardinals defense could have stopped Pittsburgh in last season’s Super Bowl). He is a great player, and a likely future hall of famer. And, Warner gets better as the running game improves. The Packers will need every bit of effort its defense can muster this weekend to limit, not stop, the Cardinals offense.
The Packers, on the other side of this Wild Card coin, are hot with a record of 7-1 in the last eight games. A big reason the team is hot is the play from quarterback Aaron Rodgers. Sure, the Packers have a better record than their playoff foe (more on that in a moment), but Rodgers must be thanking his lucky stars to be out of the frozen tundra and landing in the desert for this game. The aerial assault the Packers offense has become synonymous with will thrive in the desert. No, the Packers did not have the season’s best passing attack (remember that Peyton Manning fella?), but the offense was formidable, especially considering some unfavorable weather conditions the team plays in every season. Thirty touchdowns against just eight interceptions are impressive statistics for Rodgers, who has reliable receivers all over the field. Rodgers took many sacks early this season, but limited them late. Rodgers’ improvement in this area is important as the Cardinals are sixth in the NFL with 43 sacks in 2009.
While it is easy to focus on the quarterbacks alone in this game, what makes this matchup so fascinating is Charles Woodson, hands down the best defensive players in the league right now. Without Anquan Boldin, Woodson can blanket star receiver Larry Fitzgerald and force Warner to throw to less reliable receivers. Consider the “Charles Woodson Factor” another reason to watch this game.
This game is also interesting because it is one of the countless matchups in the NFL playoffs over the years where a Wild Card team actually has a better record than the division winner that lays claim to home field advantage. I hope that the league reviews this policy in the coming years and reseeds once playoff teams are determined. The Packers have a considerable home field advantage it seems the team should have earned, since it has a better record than its opponent and even owns the head-to-head tiebreak. The league could kill two birds with one stone by not only rewarding the team with the better record, but forcing teams to not rest starters and compete in each game of the season. Having the best record matters, and should matter. But, earning the third best record should also matter… at least it should matter more than winning a lousy division.
For this game, however, the Packers seem to have the momentum even though Arizona has surprised in the playoffs in recent seasons and postseasons, especially in 2008. With Boldin down, a new receiver can step up and help carry the Cardinals into the second round of the playoffs. The Packers and Cardinals both have a lot to prove. One thing is for certain – this is the best Wild Card matchup on the NFL 2009-2010 postseason.
Fantastic debate from Bleacher Fan and Loyal Homer. This debate will be a series, where, over time, we will research and compare various state’s high school football and eventual declare a supreme ruler.
In this case, both states have a long and storied high school football history. Bleacher Fan did a marvelous job explaining Ohio’s high school football tradition in the sport’s birthplace. There is a reason, for example, Ohio was the 2009 host of an international high school football tournament. Bleacher Fan correctly highlighted the importance of Paul Brown and his Ohio roots. Folks, there is no greater influence on the game of football – at any level, in any era – than Paul Brown. The man was a wizard with vision matched only by his ability to implement his beliefs. The legacy of his offense alone has been the muse of Heisman winners, Super Bowl winners, and Friday night champions.
Loyal Homer correctly highlights the extreme passion for high school football in the state of Georgia. The quality of talent is also an excellent supporting point from the successful head coach of North Gwinnett’s team. The willingness for major national media outlets to focus in on one intra-county rivalry game in the state of Georgia is also impressive and telling.
While tradition and passion are vital for maintaining enthusiasm for high school football, neither state has an edge over the other. Additionally, both states have consistently produced top programs, though few national champions in recent years. They each are also responsible for being the proving ground for elite athletes that continue their careers in football at the upper levels of the sport.
For this debate, the overriding factor is state-wide depth.
While quality and depth of football in Ohio and Georgia is remarkable, Loyal Homer highlights throughout the article that Georgia has the largest concentration of consistently powerful programs in a single region. Ohio’s power schools, however, are distributed throughout the entire state, in suburban, urban, and even remote areas. Across all divisions, landscapes, and demographics, judging from the two arguments, it seems Ohio has more depth throughout the state. Therefore, the debate win goes to Bleacher Fan.
It is certainly possible for these two states to switch positions in the future. The already profound passion and booster support for Georgia football is gaining additional strength every year. Passion-fueled support is vital for continued growth. Passion counts for a lot, especially in high school football.
I think there is an opportunity to encourage the organizers of high school football in each state to create a tournament where the top programs in one state play the top programs in another state. The comparisons between high school football in each state are destined to continue. While the speculation is fun to engage in, organizing high school football into state versus state competition is good for the growth of the sport, a challenge for high school football players, and an opportunity for fans to expand their pride from their town or region to their state. Also, the football would be excellent and each state’s largest venues would sell a lot of tickets. I know I would very much enjoy watching Valdosta play Massillon, Lowndes play St. Ignatius, Parkview play Moeller, and Northside play Pickerington.
I hope the debate was informative and interesting. Throughout the duration of the series we hope to highlight the value and tradition of high school football in America – a true community pastime.
There is just something about Friday nights in the fall. The leaves are browner. The air is cooler. And the small towns and the big cities gather at the same place every Friday night. It is a 100-yard sanctuary of hallowed ground. It is Friday night lights, and nowhere do the lights shine brighter than they do in Georgia.
Valdosta
As someone who grew up in the Peach State, I am extremely privileged to live 60 miles from Winnersville, Georgia – also known as Valdosta – and thanks to ESPN, now known as Titletown USA. To get a sense of the aura that Valdosta high school football has, all you have to do is look at the numbers. As of today, the Valdosta Wildcats, the nation’s winningest high school football program ever, has an overall record of 844-196-34. That includes six national championships and 23 state championships in Georgia’s highest classification (now AAAAA). In Valdosta, you have entire generations of families play for the Wildcats.
The Region
Valdosta, Georgia is a town of around 50,000, with Valdosta’s county, Lowndes County, totaling around 100,000 people. What has energized Titletown even more in the past decade is the emergence of the Lowndes County Vikings high school football team. The Vikings, after being a Wildcat “whipping boy” for an extended period of time, have won four state titles in the past 10 years, including three since 2004. It is a pretty safe bet that if both teams are playing on a Friday night in Valdosta, there will be 20,000 plus combined fans screaming at Bazemore-Hyder Stadium (Valdosta) and at Martin Stadium (Lowndes County). In addition, there will be thousands more tuned in on the radio and listening online. Each game is that much of an event. The competition is the region – the classification that high school football teams are sorted into – is extremely intense. As it is currently drawn, Valdosta and Lowndes’ region currently consists of seven teams. In the past eleven years those seven teams have combined to win eight state titles (Lowndes with four, Northside-Warner Robins with two, Warner Robins with one, and Valdosta with one). It should be noted that Rush Propst (formerly of MTV’s popular show Two-A-Days, which highlighted Alabama high school powerhouse Hoover High) is now coaching in this region at Colquitt County. Find me another region in this country that has those credentials!
The State
It is not just South Georgia that has great high school football – it is statewide! Parkview, a school in northern suburban Atlanta, won three consecutive state titles at the beginning of this decade. Who did Parkview beat in 2001 for the state championship? The aforementioned Northside-Warner Robins Tigers. I attended this game with my college roommate (who was a Northside graduate). We witnessed a spectacular show put on by current New York Met Jeff Francouer (Parkview) and current New York Jet Chansi Stuckey. Another example comes with Larry Campbell, who has coached at Lincoln County for 40 seasons and has 434 career wins to this point. Lincoln County is a county of less than 9,000 people in the northeastern part of the state, and yet year in and year out, Coach Campbell has his Red Devils competing for a state title in Class A. I have personally seen the Red Devils play 10 times. Every time I see them, they are well-prepared and very disciplined. The county seat of Lincoln County is Lincolnton, with a population of less than 2,000. Their fans have told me over the years that Lincolnton is literally a town that shuts down on Friday nights. In other words, you better have a full tank before kickoff!
Georgia and the Nation
The nation as a whole is starting to respect the tradition of high school football in Georgia. Not only has Valdosta been voted as Titletown USA, but ESPN and CBS College Sports are televising high school football games in Georgia. They are not these games where a big powerhouse from another state comes in to whip up on a local team. These are games involving two teams from the state of Georgia. For example, for the second consecutive year, the Winnersville Classic (the annual grudge match between Lowndes and Valdosta) will be televised.
State by State
Every day I receive an email newsletter outlying the activities surrounding high school football in Georgia. It is titled, “Georgia High School Football Daily.” In one of last week’s newsletters, GHSF Daily had an interview with North Gwinnett coach Bob Sphire. North Gwinnett was hosting a weekend event inviting teams from other states to come and play. Coach Sphire has coached in other parts of the country, but he says that the talent in Georgia is second to none.
“The one thing that impresses me the most is it is good all across the state in all classifications,” Sphire said. “In Alabama, for example, obviously Prattville has one of the best programs in the country… as well as Hoover. But my sense is that it is more feast or famine there. In Georgia, it is strong everywhere. In AA and AAA, the state has programs like Dublin and Calhoun.”
“Kentucky is like Alabama,” Sphire went on to say. “You had some really good programs. [But] Georgia is one of those any-given-night scenarios. I feel like I’m coaching in the SEC of high school football every Friday night. Even the teams that haven’t competed for a region championship over here, they’re going to have guys going to Notre Dame and Alabama. A lot of weeks in Kentucky I had to manufacture reasons for my players to be motivated. I don’t find myself doing that here.”
By the way, Sphire’s North Gwinnet team upset three-time defending Alabama Class 6A state champion Prattville last weekend.
I had a chance to ask GHSF Daily creator, and longtime Atlanta Journal Constitution high school reporter Todd Holcomb, about high school football in Georgia. He didn’t hold back his thoughts on Georgia’s talent, coaching, and tradition.
“Georgia is one of the top five or six states for producing NFL players and major Division I college players, and it’s not just because it’s a big state,” Holcomb said. “Georgia has a wealth of talent. There was a coach in Georgia a couple of years ago who came from Michigan and had been very successful there. He said the talent and speed here was far better, and that he’d never coached a team as talented as the first one he coached in Georgia.”
“Georgia also has great coaches,” Holcomb continued. “Georgia pays its coaches better than most Southern states because there are no restrictions on booster club supplements. Many of Georgia’s best coaches have come from out of state — Randy McPherson of Lowndes, Bob Sphire of North Gwinnett, and several others. Top coaches like to come here.”
“The final thing is support and tradition,” said Holcomb. “Fans want good football teams, and if you want it and there are talented kids, you’re going to have great football. And it’s the No. 1 sport in Georgia. Georgia produces great players in other sports as well, but football is king. If you’re an outstanding athlete, there’s a very good chance you’re going to be in a football uniform on Friday nights in Georgia.”
Georgia does not lack for NFL talent, either. If you are interested in seeing players from Georgia who went on to play in the NFL, there is an entire webpage devoted to it. Those who standout and are currently active in the NFL include Charles Grant, Champ Bailey, Super Bowl XXXIX MVP Deion Branch, Keith Brooking, Leonard Pope, Reggie Brown, and Ronnie Brown. By the way, if you are fascinated with high school football and have hours of free time, check out www.ghsgha.org. It is an endless supply of information for high school football in the state of Georgia. You can look at records of every high school, all state teams from previous years, and many other fascinating facts about high school football in Georgia. Holcomb coordinates this site, and does an excellent job with it. I encourage all readers to check it out.
Overall, I love high school football. Coming from a small town, I understand the relevance and importance of high school football to a town. I have tremendous respect for the coaches who put in hours and hours of unappreciated work. One of the first “real” books I read was Friday Night Lights by H.G. Bissinger. That book spawned a movie and a very well-written television show. It also took my love of high school football to another level, and made Odessa, Texas part of my bucket list of places I want to visit. But there is no way that any other state can match what Georgia has to offer overall in terms of high school football. From a big school like Valdosta High to a small school like Lincoln County, football is life. It is almost like a second religion here in the Bible Belt. You simply cannot top the Friday Night Lights of Georgia.
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