The Dave Duncan Debate – No One Does More with Less Than Duncan

September 10, 2009

Read the debate intro and Loyal Homer’s argument that Dave Duncan is not the best pitching coach of the last 30 years.



If there was ever an unappreciated job in baseball, it is the pitching coach. It is not glamorous. The coach gets no credit when things go well, and a ton of blame when the pitching staff fails to perform.

Unless you are Dave Duncan. Then you get a peculiar silence. The truth is that the position rarely gets noticed unless things are going terrible wrong. In Duncan’s case, that reality is a shame, because he has been the best pitching coach in Major League Baseball for the last 30 years (and counting).

Here are some facts that help demonstrate how great of a pitching coach the St. Louis Cardinals have in Dave Duncan:

  • Dave Duncan has coached four Cy Young award winners over three decades, including LaMarr Hoyt in 1983 (White Sox), Bob Welch in 1990 (Oakland Athletics), Dennis Eckersley in 1992 (Oakland Athletics), and Chris Carpenter in 2005 (St. Louis Cardinals).
  • Between the years of 1988 and 1990 his pitching staffs had the lowest ERA in the American League. For three straight seasons.
  • Coached the St. Louis Cardinals to the lowest staff ERA in baseball in 2005.

The facts are impressive (not to mention the two World Series rings), but the key to his success is his expertise. Duncan’s expertise consists primarily of reclamation. What one team no longer values, Duncan can coach into a solid contributor – and sometimes a Cy Young winner.

Dave Duncan’s manager, Tony La Russa, may have said it best when he told the USA Today in June of this year that Duncan is so good because, “…10, 15, 20 things can go wrong. Most pitching coaches can fix a dozen things. Dave is a 10 in every category.”

Coming into the 2007 season the Cardinals has Joel Pineiro, Todd Wellemeyer – and two time Chicago Cubs reject and a waiver claim from the Florida Marlins – and Kyle Lohse has starters three four and five on the staff. Experts claimed the Cardinals were in for a long year with that group and an injured Chris Carpenter still on the mend.

Wellemeyer, in particular, was a question mark because he had virtually no success in the majors. In three seasons with the Cubs he had an ERA that hovered over six, and with the Marlins his ERA was just below six. After joining the Cardinals in 2007, he posted a 3.11 ERA, and a 3.71 ERA (along with 13 wins) in 2008.

Since 2007, the aforementioned starters have won 53 games against just 31 losses.

Duncan has had several successful reclamation projects, from his transformation of Dave Stewart and Kent Bottenfield from decent to great in the last 1980’s and early 1990’s to the most recent example with John Smoltz.

When future Hall of Fame pitcher John Smoltz received the ignominy of being released by the Boston Red Sox after giving up 25 runs in his final four starts, many experts believed his days as a Major League pitcher were completely over. Not Duncan. So the Cardinals acquired the veteran who was still recovering from major surgery on his arm. After a five minute conversation with Duncan, Smoltz learned the real reason his appearances were ineffective – he was unintentionally tipping pitches. After suffering through problems in Boston where he gave up eight home runs and five walks in his final four appearances in Red Sox Nation, he has given up two home runs and just one walk in his four starts with the Cardinals. Still think the veteran is out gas?

Smoltz is just the most recent example of Duncan’s reclamation genius. He has also cultivated MLB’s third best pitching staff this season with a team ERA of 3.61 and the fewest number of walks given up all season (388). Despite battling injuries for several consecutive years, Duncan has starter Chris Carpenter back at the top of his game with a 2.16 ERA for 2009, staff ace Adam Wainwright has an ERA of 2.59, and third starter Joel Pineiro has a 3.28 on the strength of streak where he won seven consecutive starts. Closer Ryan Franklin has an ERA of just 1.67 on the strength of 37 saves while set up man Trever Miller’s ERA is just 1.86. These are not accidental occurrences. The achievements of these pitchers are tied to the tutelage of their great coach.

As great as some other pitching coaches have been throughout the years, no one has combined Duncan’s capacity for rebuilding a player coming off of injury or and cultivating a young talent into a dominant pitcher. What separates Duncan from all other pitching coaches, besides his amazing consistency and ability to create success no matter what team he coached on, is that he did not have the luxury of working with some of the game’s greatest pitchers. He turned mediocre pitchers into Cy Young winners, or washed up veterans into solid contributors. Simply put, Duncan is the best pitching coach in the last 30 years.

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The Dave Duncan Debate – Duncan Is Good… But Not That Good

September 10, 2009

Read the debate intro and Sports Geek’s argument that Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach of the past 30 years.



We have not had a baseball debate in awhile, so I am glad we are covering this… and just in time for the important Braves-Cardinals series.

St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach, Dave Duncan, is an excellent coach who is well respected by his colleagues. While he may not be well known by fans, that does not take away what he has accomplished. As Bleacher Fan stated in the intro, Duncan has had the privilege of mentoring several Cy Young winners. However, I am hesitant to name him the greatest pitching coach of the past 30 years when there was a short, grumpy bald-headed fella down in Atlanta who helped turn that franchise around. That guy’s name is Leo Mazzone, and I believe he is the best pitching coach of the past thirty years.

Mazzone, who is perhaps most distinguished by his constant rocking in the dugout, had the honor of working with the great pitching staffs for the Atlanta Braves all the way through 2005. It is worth noting that the Braves have not made the playoffs since Mazzone left after the 2005 season to go to Baltimore, which, as it turns out, was a horrible career move.

While in Atlanta, Mazzone’s pitchers won six Cy Young Awards. Greg Maddux won three, Tom Glavine won two, and John Smoltz won one. He coached nine 20 game winners and ten different Mazzone-coached pitchers made the All-Star team. During his time in Atlanta, the Braves pitching staff finished first or second in league ERA 12 out of his last 14 years as the Braves won 14 consecutive division titles.

Duncan is credited, and deservingly so, of reviving the career of players like Kyle Lohse, Joel Pineiro, and John Smoltz. He also deserves a lot of credit for developing Adam Wainwright, who ironically came up through the Braves minor league system, into a Cy Young contender. But, Mazzone made similar strides with pitchers over the years.

Mazzone turned Denny Neagle into a 20 game winner in 199. He also revived journeyman John Burkett’s career, which quietly led to an All-Star appearance in 2001. It should be noted that Jaret Wright’s career was revived in 2005 as well. Guess what Neagle and Wright did after they left Atlanta? They signed big contracts with other teams… and tanked with both teams. Hmmmmm… coincidence?

Mazzone always held “Camp Leo” a week before spring training. At Camp Leo, the pitchers would start throwing early and slowly build up their arm strength. It obviously worked. Mazzone also has his starting pitchers throw twice between starts instead of once. It is a unique philosophy, but it is hard to argue with the results.

Again, I am not trying to bring down Dave Duncan. He absolutely has flown under the radar and unfortunately, is not well known by the casual baseball fan. You might be able to make the argument that he is the second best pitching coach. But hands down the best is Leo Mazzone. Rock on Leo!

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