The Is Kurt Warner a Hall of Famer Debate – The Great Unknown for Kurt Warner

January 20, 2010

Read the opposing arguments from Sports Geek and Loyal Homer about whether or not Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is a hall of famer.



Every professional sport has a number of great players who, in spite of their accolades, never receive an invitation to the sport’s hall of fame. Baseball, for example, is full of them. Some players are seemingly disqualified from serious contention because of their connection to allegations of cheating (Mark McGwire). Others players may have infamous incidents that overshadow their career accomplishments (Roberto Alomar and the loogie heard ‘round the world). Others are ignored because they failed to reach certain benchmark achievements, like hitting 500 homeruns (Fred McGriff). Whatever their reason for exclusion, a number of great players who fail to make it into the hall of fame spawn debates about their worthiness, and football has more than its fair share of such debates. This debate examines NFL quarterback Kurt Warner’s qualifications for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Sports Geek lived up to his reputation as more than just a scholar with a mind for statistics but as a knowledgeable sports intellectual, who provides unique fact-based insight. Sports Geek’s argument began by highlighting Kurt Warner’s pedigree as one of the most prolific passers of his day, citing his huge success in St. Louis from 1999-2001, a 9-3 career playoff record, and his Super Bowl MVP. Perhaps the Sports Geek’s most compelling argument was his comparison to other quarterbacks with similar histories, quarterbacks who are actually inducted into the Pro Hall of Fame.

Loyal Homer fired back with an equally stirring argument that pointed to the monumental collapse of Warner’s career during his post-Greatest-Show-On-Turf days. Loyal Homer reminded Warner supporters that the embattled quarterback was unseated twice in as many years because of his failures to control the ball. Loyal Homer made significant advances for the argument by pointing out that in 2005 Warner was brought to Arizona where he promptly split time with the likes of Josh McCown.

Both Sports Geek and Loyal Homer brought up the fact that most of Kurt Warner’s successes were accomplished during a relatively short career in a short burst of greatness offset by periods of struggles and ineffectiveness. Whether the short timeframe of Warner’s success should be viewed as a positive or negative is truly a matter of personal opinion.

For me, the arguments boiled down to one central question: Is the debate whether Kurt Warner will be inducted into the Hall of Fame or whether Kurt Warner should be inducted into the hall of fame? Sports Geek makes it abundantly clear that Warner boasts career numbers that probably will send him to Canton… eventually. But Loyal Homer convinced me that Warner should not be remembered among the greats of the game. Therefore I am awarding the victory to Loyal Homer.

When I think of the greatest names in professional football history names like Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, and Peyton Manning come to mind. Kurt Warner will be remembered as a very good quarterback, but I agree with Loyal Homer that the NFL should not dilute the memory and legacy of those who are truly the best by allowing anything less to enter enshrinement in the living memory of the sport, which is the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

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The Is Kurt Warner a Hall of Famer Debate – A Tale of Two Kurts

January 19, 2010

Read the opposing arguments from Sports Geek and Loyal Homer about whether or not Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is a hall of famer.



The past decade fans have been privy to one of the greatest generations of football players in history. The NFL is currently littered with living legends. Gridiron goliaths, like Peyton Manning and Brett Favre stand head and shoulders above the competition and will no doubt go down in professional football history as some of the greatest players to ever take the field. In this era of elite play, there are great players who will ultimately not make the cut as one of the greats in history. This is great news for fans, and more importantly to the TSD crew, because it allows us to argue about the place in history of our favorite players. One player that elicits such controversy, is a star in the twilight of his career – Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner.

Kurt Warner’s career is best summed up in the immortal words of Charles Dickens: “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.”

The current Arizona Cardinals quarterback has built an up-and-down career marked by periods of incredible success and phases of mediocrity and epic failures. With a resume that includes two league MVPs, multiple Super Bowl appearances, and a Super Bowl MVP it is easy to establish that Warner is a talented quarterback. But his physical frailty and failures between the 2002-2004 seasons call his hall of fame qualifications into doubt.

Is Kurt Warner a hall of fame quarterback?

Sports Geek is sure to construct a cerebral argument, supported by empirical evidence, stating that Kurt Warner is a deserving candidate for enshrinement in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And we can count on Loyal Homer to issue a passionate rebuttal, explaining the reasons why Kurt Warner should have no place among the greatest players of all time.
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Whose intellectual offense will prevail? Should Kurt start packing his bags for Canton, Ohio, or will he have to buy a ticket if he wants to get into the Hall of Fame?

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The Is Kurt Warner a Hall of Famer Debate – The Hall of Game Threshold

January 19, 2010

Read the debate intro and the opposing argument from Loyal Homer that Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner is not a hall of famer.



These are the types of questions that The Sports Debates was launched to answer. These questions, folks, are also the most compelling to Sports Geeks like me.

It is a simple question – is Kurt Warner a hall of fame caliber quarterback? Such a simple question deserves a simple answer. It would be great to give one, too.

Instead, a simple examination of his statistics, followed by a comparison to current pro football hall of fame quarterbacks, proves without a doubt that Kurt Warner, even if he does decide to retire this season as the still young(ish) age of 38, deserves to be recognized as a hall of famer.

Kurt Warner in just 125 career starts – thanks to injuries – has compiled one of the best careers for any quarterback of all time. From 1999-2001 Kurt Warner strung together one of the greatest runs by any measure. In 1999 (when Warner completed one of the greatest seasons for pro quarterback ever) he threw a whopping 41 touchdowns against just 13 interceptions and led the NFC with a completion percentage of over 65 percent. In 2000 he managed to improve his completion percentage to 67.7 percent and lead the NFC in seven notable statistical categories, despite starting just 11 games. In 2001 he led his team with an amazing season-long performance where he completed nearly 69 percent of his passes, threw for nearly 5,000 yards, and averaged 301.9 yards passing per game. Perhaps Warner benefited from the offensive scheme the Rams employed, but he is also responsible for making it work like no other quarterback could.

The biggest threshold Warner has to pass for many was the ability to perform outside of the late 1990s St. Louis Rams’ offenses. Sure, Kurt Warner was great during the Greatest Show On Turf days. But, how good of a quarterback was Warner after St. Louis? No worries – he was great. After a couple of injury-riddled seasons he posted nearly 3,500 yards and 27 touchdowns in 2007, then followed that up with 4,583 yards passing and 30 touchdowns along with a Super Bowl appearance (and a brutal loss that could have been a great win if not for some bad defense down the stretch). This season Warner led the team to another season of double-digit wins and tossed over 3,700 yards with 26 touchdowns. Warner’s skills are not exactly in decline.

Warner also has a 9-3 career playoff record, a Super Bowl win and Super Bowl MVP trophy.

So, what is the threshold for the hall of fame? On the surface Warner seems worthy of consideration. I offer two quarterbacks that Kurt Warner compares to similarly to prove that he is worthy of being a hall of famer: Dan Fouts and Troy Aikman.

Dan Fouts, like Kurt Warner, threw for over 4,000 passing yards three times in his career. Unlike Warner, who spread his performances out throughout his career, Fouts reached that magical season benchmark in three consecutive seasons. Dan Fouts was a very accurate passer, one of the reasons he reached the hall of fame. Kurt Warner’s completion percentage for a season only once dipped below 60 percent. Fouts failed to reach 60 percent 10 times. Fouts also finished his career just two games over .500 as a starter, with a career playoff record of 3-4. Warner is currently 13 games over .500.

Troy Aikman is another hall of fame quarterback that Kurt Warner already leads in many statistical categories. Obviously, Aikman’s playoff record is incomparable, finishing 11-4 with several rings. But, Aikman never threw 25 touchdown passes in a season, notching 23 in 1992 as a career high. Warner surpassed 25 TD passes on five separate occasions. The highest passing yards per game Aikman ever averaged is 229.5. Sure, Aikman was a great quarterback, but on a team with a great running back, too. The burden for Warner to carry the team’s offensive output and continue to perform at a high level separates him from other players he compares favorably to, like Troy Aikman.

If 2009 proves to be Warner’s last, he will have ended strongly, unlike the aforementioned hall of famers. Fouts ended his career with a five win season, just 2,517 passing yards and 10 touchdowns. Aikman ended with just four wins, fewer than 2,000 passing yards and seven touchdowns. Both Fouts and Aikman are deserving of hall of fame recognition. By the threshold their careers have established, so is Kurt Warner.

What, truly, is the knock against Kurt Warner’s hall of fame credentials? His stats are great. His performance on the biggest stage is great. He has a Super Bowl MVP. He is a great player, a great story, and one of the best of all time. The only true knock against Warner is that he has not played very long. He has only started 125 games. For Warner, however, his relatively short playing time turns out to be a positive when considering his hall of famer worthiness. The only factor that makes Kurt Warner’s accomplishments more noteworthy is the fact that he accomplished so much in such a relatively short span of time.

I could take up twenty-five pages of point by point comparison of Warner and other pro football hall of fame quarterbacks. I simply do not have to do that. Warner’s statistics, his consistency, and his dominance of the game during his prime are remarkable, and worthy of recognition of the highest honor as one of the best quarterbacks ever to play the game of football.

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The Limbaugh Edition Celebrity Ownership Debate – Don’t Be So Quick To Dismiss

October 15, 2009

Read the debate intro and Sports Geek’s argument that Rush Limbaugh would not be a good addition to the NFL as an owner.

The mere thought of Rush Limbaugh becoming a part owner of the St. Louis Rams sent shock waves throughout the country. It seems that everyone has an opinion on it. Other owners have an opinion. Other players have an opinion. NFL Commisioner Roger Goodell has an opinion. Our friends from the NAACP, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, have an opinion (and we know they always do). We all know what OPINION is on all of this. Quite frankly, I am disappointed it has gotten all of this attention.

First Limbaugh has been dropped by the group that is interested in purchasing the Rams, as Bleacher Fan stated in the intro. However, should Rush ever express any interest in becoming part of another group to purchase the Rams or any other team, I, as a fan of the NFL… and even if I was a die-hard fan of that particular team, would not be opposed to it.

I am not condoning any of Rush’s past comments about Donavan McNabb, the NBA, or anything else controversial he has stated. I am not saying I believe everything Rush says, either. I really cannot say either way because I am not an avid Rush Limbaugh listener. None of that matters in this situation, though. Who cares if he is a conservative? It has absolutely nothing to do with him being an owner. His political views would in no way impact whether or not he thinks his team should sign a player. Love him or hate him, Rush has built himself a rather large radio empire, and he did not do that by making unsound business decisions.

I know he has officially been dropped from the group interested in the Rams, but in case you have not noticed, the St. Louis Rams need a change. They need some spice. They need something to draw attention. As I stated in a previous debate, the Rams are not your older brother’s Rams. They are no longer “The Greatest Show on Turf.” In fact, you can make a legitimate argument that are one of – if not THE – worst team in the league. Gone are the days of Warner, Fault, Bruce, and Holt. Why not bring in someone like Rush to charge up the franchise?

I find it funny that people think he was going to be the SOLE owner. He was not. He was not going to be a Jerry Jones or a Daniel Snyder type. He was a part of a group. He was not even going to be a MAJORITY owner. He was going to own only a portion. How much was never specified, but it is reasonable to assume it was not a very big amount. It is just like the situation with the Dolphins, where Marc Anthony, Gloria Estefan, Venus Williams, and Serena Williams own a portion of the team. They are not making day-to-day decisions. Their stakes are not enough to earn that right. I think it is safe to say they have  given the organization a lift, and the value of the franchise will rise because of it.

It looks as if it will not work out with the Rams. But, if Rush shows interest in being a part of another group to purchase another team, then why not? Let him go for it!!! As long as he has the capital to invest, I see absolutely no problem with it.

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The Quick Hook Coach Debate – The Quick Trigger is Not The Answer

October 6, 2009

Read the debate intro and Bleacher Fan’s argument that firing a coach early in the season is warranted.



I am well aware of the fact that today’s society is a “what have you done for me lately” society. I realize that people want answers now, not tomorrow. I realize that fans like Bleacher Fan have suffered, and I sympathize with those frustrations. I am a diehard Atlanta Falcons fan, fully aware that the organization has never had back to back winning seasons. I do understand the need to go after a potential quick fix. But firing a coach early in the season is not the answer.

I have never been in favor of firing a coach during the middle of the season, whether middle is four games in, two months in, or with six games to go in the season. It rarely has an positive impact. For every success story like Jim Tracy being hired in May and leading the Rockies to the wild card, there are 100 stories that detail how midseason change is not the way to go. For example, since 1970 no NFL head coach hired in midseason has made it to the playoffs.

In the examples listed by Sports Geek in the intro, coaches like Jeff Fisher are established coaches who have had success in this league. There is no doubt the Tennessee Titans are off to an atrocious start, though they competed in three fairly close games before the disaster this past week against the Jaguars. But, does that warrant a firing? Not hardly.

How about those who are head coaches for the very first time? Raheem Morris (Tampa Bay), Todd Haley (Kansas City) and Steve Spagnuolo (St. Louis) all fall under this category. All three of these teams are in obvious rebuilding mode. The Bucs have had a lot of personnel turnover in the past couple of and admit the team is in rebuilding mode. (Loyal Homer still openly questions the firing of Jon Gruden, but that is a debate for another day.) Kansas City, which was a competitive team not so long ago, failed to win games the majority of the time under former coach Herman Edwards and are now rebuilding. The Rams, who not so long ago had the “Greatest Show on Turf” now has one of the worst shows on turf, having been outscored 63-0 by two division opponents so far this season (28-0 Seattle and 35-0 San Francisco). Those results spell rebuilding. What should be expected? Is it fair to expect these three guys to go 4-0 in their first four games? All three of them were established assistant coaches. It is not fair to judge them on their first four games. What if you were judged solely on your first four days on the job?

Plus, firing a coach at this point in the season, or at any point during the season, nullifies the previous months of work. Organized team activities, training camp, preseason, and the first four games of the season have gotten the team to this point. Does firing the coach really improve the team right now? What if a new coach with an entirely different system comes in and brings his playbook and his coaches? That arrangement basically tosses aside the last THREE quarters of the season. That is not the answer!

To reiterate, I do understand the frustration of the fans of those teams who are currently sitting winless. It is maddening! But there is hope. Give established guys like Fisher and John Fox a chance to do what they do best. They are proven winners. And, give the new guys a chance. They are still laying the groundwork on hopefully building a good team. It just requires a little patience.

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The Which NFL Team Should Be Demoted Debate – The Rams Deserve a Demotion

September 7, 2009

Read Sports Geek’s argument that Oakland deserves demotion and Bleacher Fan’s argument that Detroit deserves demotion.



The NFL season kicks off officially Thursday night, with the Steelers taking on the Titans. The full week schedule, of course, begins on Sunday. Some teams really start off the season under the gun. Quite frankly, some teams just are not very good. In fact, if one team deserved to be demoted from the NFL, it would be the St. Louis Rams.

Quite honestly, the Rams are not very good right now. My how they have really fallen from being “The Greatest Show on Turf.” I thoroughly enjoyed watching those teams. What a show they could put on, with the likes of quarterback Kurt Warner, running back Marshall Faulk, and wide receivers Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce. Now Warner coming off a Super Bowl appearance with Arizona, Faulk is working for the NFL Network, Holt is with Jacksonville, and Bruce is with the 49ers.

Now the Rams have a new coach in former New York Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo. Last year they played under Scott Linehan, who was fired, and interim coach Jim Haslett. The 2008 Rams finished 2-14, which was proceeded by a 3-13 record in 2007. There is no guarantee that this year’s team is going to reach either one of those records.

Do not let the 2009 preseason record of 3-1 fool you. The Detroit Lions went 3-1 this preseason, if that tells you anything. The Rams are still bad. Just take a look at their roster.

When healthy, quarterback Marc Bulger and running back Steven Jackson are good players. Bulger is a two-time Pro Bowler who has struggled some the past two years but still is a serviceable quarterback. Jackson is a former Pro Bowler who has rushed for over 1,000 yards the past four seasons. After that, it is slim pickings for an offense that scored a minuscule 232 points last year. Longtime Rams receiver Torry Holt left for Jacksonville, leaving the likes of Donnie Avery and Laurent Robinson at wide receiver. Some of you may have heard of both of these guys, but most probably have not. Just take a look at their depth chart! Yikes!

On defense, it is much of the same story. Recent draft picks Chris Long and James Laurinaitis may eventually pay off down the road, but right now, it is a weak defense.

The Rams, like several NFL teams, may be experiencing blackout problems this year. The Rams had two blackouts last year and have not officially released any numbers regarding potential blackouts this year. But it is logical to think that if the Rams struggle right out of the gate, the possibility of multiple blackouts looms large. Playing in the NFC West definitely helps the team, as it is one of the weaker divisions in football, and the schedule could be tougher. But, the Rams are definitely in no position to overlook anyone.

I really hope the Rams turn it around. I miss watching The Greatest Show on Turf. It fits my football mindset. What does not fit my football mindset is how the team is now. It is bad, folks. It is so bad that if I had to choose one team for demotion, it would be the St. Louis Rams! Prove me wrong, Rams!

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