The Dave Duncan Debate – Duncan More Impressive Than Mazzone

September 11, 2009

Read the debate intro and Sports Geek’s and Loyal Homer’s arguments on whether or not Dave Duncan has been the best pitching coach of the past 30 years.



As I sit down to write my verdict, the Tennessee Titans and Pittsburgh Steelers are doing battle in Pittsburgh as the NFL season officially kicks off. So, with all due respect to Major League Baseball, I am keeping this one short and sweet.

The victory for this debate goes to Sports Geek.

I will concede to Loyal Homer that Leo Mazzone had an outstanding tenure in Atlanta. When thinking about pitching in the 1990’s, no pitching staff was more dominant than Mazzone’s Atlanta Braves hurlers. The names that Loyal Homer mentioned who thrived while pitching under Mazzone – Greg Maddux, Denny Neagle, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz – were undoubtedly the best in the baseball. That dominance, however, only accounts for 15 of the last 30 years. Yes, Mazzone produced astonishing results while in Atlanta, but his tenure did not begin with them until 1990. By that time, Duncan had already produced two of his four Cy Young award winners. As Sports Geek points out, Duncan’s success has spanned a much broader period of time, including three straight seasons with the league’s lowest ERA from 1988 – 1990, and again 15 years later in 2005.

The second point that must be addressed is the fact that Duncan is STILL producing successful pitchers today. John Smoltz’s apparent revival in St. Louis is just one example of the pitching dominance in St. Louis this season. Adam Wainwright and Chris Carpenter are both legitimate contenders for the National League Cy Young award. Wainwright currently has the most wins in baseball with 18 (Carpenter is second with 16 wins), and Carpenter owns the league’s best ERA with 2.16 (Wainwright sits at fifth with an ERA of 2.59). As a team, the Cardinals have the third best ERA in the Majors, they lead the league in fewest walks allowed, and have given up the third fewest runs in baseball.

As highlighted by our friend “plstcoscr61,” Duncan has had success with multiple teams in both the American League AND the National League, whereas Mazzone had success only with Atlanta. As agreed upon by Loyal Homer, when Mazzone left Atlanta for Baltimore he did not come close to the level of success he had left behind with the Braves.

Duncan has been more consistent over a broader range of teams for a much longer period of time than has Mazzone. In the discussion of who the best pitching coach of the past 30 years has been, the award goes to Dave Duncan!

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The Dave Duncan Debate – No One Does More with Less Than Duncan

September 10, 2009

Read the debate intro and Loyal Homer’s argument that Dave Duncan is not the best pitching coach of the last 30 years.



If there was ever an unappreciated job in baseball, it is the pitching coach. It is not glamorous. The coach gets no credit when things go well, and a ton of blame when the pitching staff fails to perform.

Unless you are Dave Duncan. Then you get a peculiar silence. The truth is that the position rarely gets noticed unless things are going terrible wrong. In Duncan’s case, that reality is a shame, because he has been the best pitching coach in Major League Baseball for the last 30 years (and counting).

Here are some facts that help demonstrate how great of a pitching coach the St. Louis Cardinals have in Dave Duncan:

  • Dave Duncan has coached four Cy Young award winners over three decades, including LaMarr Hoyt in 1983 (White Sox), Bob Welch in 1990 (Oakland Athletics), Dennis Eckersley in 1992 (Oakland Athletics), and Chris Carpenter in 2005 (St. Louis Cardinals).
  • Between the years of 1988 and 1990 his pitching staffs had the lowest ERA in the American League. For three straight seasons.
  • Coached the St. Louis Cardinals to the lowest staff ERA in baseball in 2005.

The facts are impressive (not to mention the two World Series rings), but the key to his success is his expertise. Duncan’s expertise consists primarily of reclamation. What one team no longer values, Duncan can coach into a solid contributor – and sometimes a Cy Young winner.

Dave Duncan’s manager, Tony La Russa, may have said it best when he told the USA Today in June of this year that Duncan is so good because, “…10, 15, 20 things can go wrong. Most pitching coaches can fix a dozen things. Dave is a 10 in every category.”

Coming into the 2007 season the Cardinals has Joel Pineiro, Todd Wellemeyer – and two time Chicago Cubs reject and a waiver claim from the Florida Marlins – and Kyle Lohse has starters three four and five on the staff. Experts claimed the Cardinals were in for a long year with that group and an injured Chris Carpenter still on the mend.

Wellemeyer, in particular, was a question mark because he had virtually no success in the majors. In three seasons with the Cubs he had an ERA that hovered over six, and with the Marlins his ERA was just below six. After joining the Cardinals in 2007, he posted a 3.11 ERA, and a 3.71 ERA (along with 13 wins) in 2008.

Since 2007, the aforementioned starters have won 53 games against just 31 losses.

Duncan has had several successful reclamation projects, from his transformation of Dave Stewart and Kent Bottenfield from decent to great in the last 1980’s and early 1990’s to the most recent example with John Smoltz.

When future Hall of Fame pitcher John Smoltz received the ignominy of being released by the Boston Red Sox after giving up 25 runs in his final four starts, many experts believed his days as a Major League pitcher were completely over. Not Duncan. So the Cardinals acquired the veteran who was still recovering from major surgery on his arm. After a five minute conversation with Duncan, Smoltz learned the real reason his appearances were ineffective – he was unintentionally tipping pitches. After suffering through problems in Boston where he gave up eight home runs and five walks in his final four appearances in Red Sox Nation, he has given up two home runs and just one walk in his four starts with the Cardinals. Still think the veteran is out gas?

Smoltz is just the most recent example of Duncan’s reclamation genius. He has also cultivated MLB’s third best pitching staff this season with a team ERA of 3.61 and the fewest number of walks given up all season (388). Despite battling injuries for several consecutive years, Duncan has starter Chris Carpenter back at the top of his game with a 2.16 ERA for 2009, staff ace Adam Wainwright has an ERA of 2.59, and third starter Joel Pineiro has a 3.28 on the strength of streak where he won seven consecutive starts. Closer Ryan Franklin has an ERA of just 1.67 on the strength of 37 saves while set up man Trever Miller’s ERA is just 1.86. These are not accidental occurrences. The achievements of these pitchers are tied to the tutelage of their great coach.

As great as some other pitching coaches have been throughout the years, no one has combined Duncan’s capacity for rebuilding a player coming off of injury or and cultivating a young talent into a dominant pitcher. What separates Duncan from all other pitching coaches, besides his amazing consistency and ability to create success no matter what team he coached on, is that he did not have the luxury of working with some of the game’s greatest pitchers. He turned mediocre pitchers into Cy Young winners, or washed up veterans into solid contributors. Simply put, Duncan is the best pitching coach in the last 30 years.

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The Dave Duncan Debate – Duncan Is Good… But Not That Good

September 10, 2009

Read the debate intro and Sports Geek’s argument that Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach of the past 30 years.



We have not had a baseball debate in awhile, so I am glad we are covering this… and just in time for the important Braves-Cardinals series.

St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach, Dave Duncan, is an excellent coach who is well respected by his colleagues. While he may not be well known by fans, that does not take away what he has accomplished. As Bleacher Fan stated in the intro, Duncan has had the privilege of mentoring several Cy Young winners. However, I am hesitant to name him the greatest pitching coach of the past 30 years when there was a short, grumpy bald-headed fella down in Atlanta who helped turn that franchise around. That guy’s name is Leo Mazzone, and I believe he is the best pitching coach of the past thirty years.

Mazzone, who is perhaps most distinguished by his constant rocking in the dugout, had the honor of working with the great pitching staffs for the Atlanta Braves all the way through 2005. It is worth noting that the Braves have not made the playoffs since Mazzone left after the 2005 season to go to Baltimore, which, as it turns out, was a horrible career move.

While in Atlanta, Mazzone’s pitchers won six Cy Young Awards. Greg Maddux won three, Tom Glavine won two, and John Smoltz won one. He coached nine 20 game winners and ten different Mazzone-coached pitchers made the All-Star team. During his time in Atlanta, the Braves pitching staff finished first or second in league ERA 12 out of his last 14 years as the Braves won 14 consecutive division titles.

Duncan is credited, and deservingly so, of reviving the career of players like Kyle Lohse, Joel Pineiro, and John Smoltz. He also deserves a lot of credit for developing Adam Wainwright, who ironically came up through the Braves minor league system, into a Cy Young contender. But, Mazzone made similar strides with pitchers over the years.

Mazzone turned Denny Neagle into a 20 game winner in 199. He also revived journeyman John Burkett’s career, which quietly led to an All-Star appearance in 2001. It should be noted that Jaret Wright’s career was revived in 2005 as well. Guess what Neagle and Wright did after they left Atlanta? They signed big contracts with other teams… and tanked with both teams. Hmmmmm… coincidence?

Mazzone always held “Camp Leo” a week before spring training. At Camp Leo, the pitchers would start throwing early and slowly build up their arm strength. It obviously worked. Mazzone also has his starting pitchers throw twice between starts instead of once. It is a unique philosophy, but it is hard to argue with the results.

Again, I am not trying to bring down Dave Duncan. He absolutely has flown under the radar and unfortunately, is not well known by the casual baseball fan. You might be able to make the argument that he is the second best pitching coach. But hands down the best is Leo Mazzone. Rock on Leo!

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The Dave Duncan Debate – If There’s a Great Woman Behind Every Great Man, Then Who Is Behind a Great Pitcher?

September 10, 2009

Read Sports Geek and Loyal Homer’s arguments on whether or not Dave Duncan has been the best pitching coach of the last 30 years.



Think about some of the great pitchers of the past 30 years. Names like Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, Dennis Eckersley, Roger Clemens, and Randy Johnson quickly come to mind.

Much of those pitcher’s success can be credited to talent, but much credit must ALSO be given to the pitching coaches who helped those players develop, hone, and perfect their technique over the course of their careers.

Just as some players are better than others, there are also those coaches who seem to have a certain knack for bringing out the best in those they are coaching. Dave Duncan, pitching coach for the St. Louis Cardinals, is one of those coaches. Over the course of his career as a pitching coach in Major League Baseball, Dave Duncan has helped to develop some of the most dominant pitchers of the era, including several Cy Young Award winners.

Recently, Duncan took the opportunity to prove once again why he is one of the best in the business when pitcher John Smoltz was brought into the Cardinals organization. Smoltz, who was pitching with the Boston Red Sox at the start of the season, had pitched himself to a 2-5 record with an 8.33 ERA by mid-August. Because of his struggles, Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein decided it was time to make a change, so he Designated Smoltz For Assignment (DFA). Whenever a player is named as DFA, he is essentially placed on a 10-day waiting list while other teams within the league can claim him off waivers. If no team claims the player off waivers within that 10-day period, his current team can either release him outright or send him to the Minors. Many thought this was the beginning of the end of a likely Hall of Fame career for Smoltz.

Fortunately for Smoltz, the Cardinals decided to take a shot, believing that the 42-year-old pitcher still was capable of producing on the mound. They signed him as a free-agent for the remainder of the season, then let the master, Dave Duncan, go to work.

During his workout, Duncan and his staff noticed several things Smoltz was doing that lead to some of his recent struggles on the mound. After working with Duncan to correct some of those issues, Smoltz made his first start for the Cardinals on August 23rd against the San Diego Padres.

How did he do?

The “washed-up” pitcher that left the Red Sox was nowhere to be found. Instead, Smoltz dominated on the mound for the Cards, throwing five scoreless innings and striking out nine batters during the outing. It was like the “Smoltzie” of old was back (much to the chagrin of the Padres).

After just a few short days with Dave Duncan, Smoltz was seemingly able to correct several technical flaws and return to his Cooperstown-esque (yes, that IS a word… at least for THIS article) level of performance.

Without a doubt, Duncan is one of the best pitching coaches in baseball, but how does he compare to the other great pitching coaches of the last 30 years?

Is Dave Duncan the best pitching coach of the last 30 years in Major League Baseball?

Sports Geek will argue that none have been better in their role as pitching coach than Duncan. He has produced so many dominant pitchers, over such a long period of time, that he is without a doubt the best of his era.

Loyal Homer will argue that Duncan, who has had an exceptional career, still falls short of being considered the best. While he has been among the best, there are others whose credentials supersede his.

Debaters, the stage is yours.

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